Well, he has a thing going with that guy, now. I don't think--
[ This is hard to even talk about. He doesn't fully know what he wants to say. ]
I hate it. So much, Alex, I hate that this much older guy, and I mean much older, is doing this with him. I don't think that Nick thinks straight about any of it, and I don't think that what's basically abuse can...
I know they were both drugged. I know it wasn't on purpose, and they're both victims.
And it's worse, because he's Dick's Doninant, and Dick thinks I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm wrong. And I don't know if I'm just--
I don't want to be the guy getting in the way of Nick's happiness, either. I never want to be that guy. I tried talking to Nick about it. I said, deal with that trauma, talk to someone. Put it behind you and then see if this thing with Logan is real and not just...all the bad sending you down a bad path. They broke up for maybe five minutes and now it's a thing again. I don't know what to do. Maybe I am wrong, I just don't feel it.
[ That is...a lot of words. More words than Michael normally puts together all at once, even with Alex. It spills out of him like a flood, one that's been trapped behind a dam for months. ]
Okay, well, we both know that I can't really throw stones about the age thing. Although the way you're saying much makes me think it's more than a decade or two.
[ He takes a moment to try to unpack what Guerin is saying, some small part of him pleased even despite the circumstances because Guerin came to him. ]
Without knowing anything about what happened between this Logan and Nick beyond that video, my first instinct is to point out what happened with Kyle. Because he went out of his way not to shoot my dad. And then asshole vampires and this city turned on him.
But. That's just one example of what could happen, not what is happening here.
And I know that you know all about what this place can twist a person into doing. So I'm going to guess what's worrying you about the relationship goes beyond what happened in the video.
[ Michael sighs. He's pacing while he talks, trying to explain feelings that he finds hard to unpack and harder to vocalize. ]
He never dealt with what happened. He just...shut down about it, and then built this thing with Logan out of shared trauma. I feel like--
I don't know, Alex. You don't deal with pain by leaning into the thing that hurt you. I know that better than anyone.
[ He flexes his left hand on instinct. Michael hadn't dealt with that trauma. It had poisoned him for so long, had poisoned his relationship with Alex. He chews his lip. ]
It's not the age thing, in itself, that bothers me. It's that I think Logan's old enough to know this isn't a good thing and to step away from it. God knows it's what I did. But he won't.
Devil's advocate here. There are a lot of good relationships that can come out of building something through shared trauma. And, granted, the ones I'm talking about have all been platonic, but that doesn't change the point.
I think what you really have to ask yourself is whether Nick views Logan as the one who hurt him or whether it's the city who hurt him with Logan being the tool they used. Because if it's the first, you're right to be worried. That's not healthy, not in any sustainable way.
Either way. It's a tricky situation and there's a lot that I don't know.
Did they know each other before that video was shot? You said that he shut down about it. Was it only you he shut down about to? What kind of conversations did they have about it after the fact? How long until they started sleeping together without drugs included?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but there are a lot of things that weren't in our experience that make this more complicated. With us, it was abused and abuser. People in their right mind who made this choice to hurt us over and over. And I guess that's what it boils down to.
Is Logan still hurting him? [ Because that's unacceptable. Borderline if it's part of an agreed-upon part of the kinds of kink that permeate the city. Because even if it's agreed on, it's a slippery slope that leads back to the memory of trauma, if not new trauma itself. ]
I don't think he is. I think if he were that kind of guy, Dick wouldn't be with him. [ A pause. ] But then maybe he would, if he thought he could stop it that way. Nick says he isn't.
[ Michael has to take his word for it, but honestly, there's a lot he doesn't trust about it. ]
The video was the first time they met, and they got together a while after. Not long after. I think it was a commiserating thing that turned into more, which I would think was fine if Nick had dealt with what happened to him, but he didn't.
I think he's gonna try, now. Maybe that'll make a difference. I know I need to stay out of it, and I will, but it doesn't mean I don't hate it.
I'm just talking generalities here, because I don't really know the Dick Grayson that you know, but I can't imagine a world where ANY Dick would stand by while someone was being hurt and then deny that the person doing it was a problem.
I'm not saying you have to like it. Far from it. You're doing a good thing, trying to look out for him. But unless you have evidence that something's wrong, what are you really going to do?
It's not as if we haven't made our own mistakes when it comes to pushing into something before either of us were really ready.
[ And he's absolutely thinking of Roswell and those nights he'd spent at Guerin before slipping off well before morning. ]
You know that if anyone tries to hurt him like that again, he's going to have an army at his back to support him. If you really want to do something, just make sure he knows that. Knows that if he gets in trouble, his own fault or not, that he has people here who would fight for him if we needed to.
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momijizukamori
@guerin (audio)
Date: 2021-10-10 06:31 am (UTC)You got a minute?
no subject
Date: 2021-10-10 06:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-10-10 06:53 am (UTC)It's this whole--
It's Nick. You remember that...video of him, the one where he was drugged, and the other guy was drugged too, and the other guy--used him.
Roughly. It was just after Maria got here.
no subject
Date: 2021-10-10 06:56 am (UTC)Yeah. I mean, I didn't really know him at the time, yet, but yeah.
no subject
Date: 2021-10-10 07:04 am (UTC)[ This is hard to even talk about. He doesn't fully know what he wants to say. ]
I hate it. So much, Alex, I hate that this much older guy, and I mean much older, is doing this with him. I don't think that Nick thinks straight about any of it, and I don't think that what's basically abuse can...
I know they were both drugged. I know it wasn't on purpose, and they're both victims.
And it's worse, because he's Dick's Doninant, and Dick thinks I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm wrong. And I don't know if I'm just--
I don't want to be the guy getting in the way of Nick's happiness, either. I never want to be that guy. I tried talking to Nick about it. I said, deal with that trauma, talk to someone. Put it behind you and then see if this thing with Logan is real and not just...all the bad sending you down a bad path. They broke up for maybe five minutes and now it's a thing again. I don't know what to do. Maybe I am wrong, I just don't feel it.
[ That is...a lot of words. More words than Michael normally puts together all at once, even with Alex. It spills out of him like a flood, one that's been trapped behind a dam for months. ]
no subject
Date: 2021-10-10 07:22 am (UTC)[ He takes a moment to try to unpack what Guerin is saying, some small part of him pleased even despite the circumstances because Guerin came to him. ]
Without knowing anything about what happened between this Logan and Nick beyond that video, my first instinct is to point out what happened with Kyle. Because he went out of his way not to shoot my dad. And then asshole vampires and this city turned on him.
But. That's just one example of what could happen, not what is happening here.
And I know that you know all about what this place can twist a person into doing. So I'm going to guess what's worrying you about the relationship goes beyond what happened in the video.
no subject
Date: 2021-10-10 09:59 am (UTC)He never dealt with what happened. He just...shut down about it, and then built this thing with Logan out of shared trauma. I feel like--
I don't know, Alex. You don't deal with pain by leaning into the thing that hurt you. I know that better than anyone.
[ He flexes his left hand on instinct. Michael hadn't dealt with that trauma. It had poisoned him for so long, had poisoned his relationship with Alex. He chews his lip. ]
It's not the age thing, in itself, that bothers me. It's that I think Logan's old enough to know this isn't a good thing and to step away from it. God knows it's what I did. But he won't.
no subject
Date: 2021-10-10 01:52 pm (UTC)I think what you really have to ask yourself is whether Nick views Logan as the one who hurt him or whether it's the city who hurt him with Logan being the tool they used. Because if it's the first, you're right to be worried. That's not healthy, not in any sustainable way.
Either way. It's a tricky situation and there's a lot that I don't know.
Did they know each other before that video was shot? You said that he shut down about it. Was it only you he shut down about to? What kind of conversations did they have about it after the fact? How long until they started sleeping together without drugs included?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but there are a lot of things that weren't in our experience that make this more complicated. With us, it was abused and abuser. People in their right mind who made this choice to hurt us over and over. And I guess that's what it boils down to.
Is Logan still hurting him? [ Because that's unacceptable. Borderline if it's part of an agreed-upon part of the kinds of kink that permeate the city. Because even if it's agreed on, it's a slippery slope that leads back to the memory of trauma, if not new trauma itself. ]
no subject
Date: 2021-10-28 12:52 am (UTC)[ Michael has to take his word for it, but honestly, there's a lot he doesn't trust about it. ]
The video was the first time they met, and they got together a while after. Not long after. I think it was a commiserating thing that turned into more, which I would think was fine if Nick had dealt with what happened to him, but he didn't.
I think he's gonna try, now. Maybe that'll make a difference. I know I need to stay out of it, and I will, but it doesn't mean I don't hate it.
no subject
Date: 2021-11-01 11:30 pm (UTC)I'm not saying you have to like it. Far from it. You're doing a good thing, trying to look out for him. But unless you have evidence that something's wrong, what are you really going to do?
It's not as if we haven't made our own mistakes when it comes to pushing into something before either of us were really ready.
[ And he's absolutely thinking of Roswell and those nights he'd spent at Guerin before slipping off well before morning. ]
no subject
Date: 2021-11-15 12:45 pm (UTC)I know.
I just don't want Nick to make those mistakes. Which I know is stupid, because he has to, and there's probably no reason to worry about this anyway.
[ He's aware that he's talking himself out of taking any action, which was really the point of this in the first place. ]
I don't know. I guess I just needed to say it aloud to someone.
no subject
Date: 2021-12-02 03:41 pm (UTC)